Braking news

"WilliamsSW" (williamssw) 02/15/2020 at 12:15 • Filed to: Mercedes-Benz, E550, They’re made from vibranium aren’t they

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So, I took the Mercedes in for service yesterday (don’t @ me, I had a $100 coupon and an open recall), and their one note to me was that the brakes “won’t make it to the next service interval”, which is probably almost a year.

So they quoted me $2,000 total for front and rears (allegedly it will need both). Presumably this includes 4 rotors, though I was too dumbfounded to clarify.

I haven’t researched yet, but anyone know if there’s anything magical about these brakes?Front rotors are cross drilled.

I have plenty of time, but plan to look into doing this myself and seeing if I can do pads only without compromising braking.

I think they made a mistake warning me like that - around here most people probably just say “yes” because safety, instead they gave me lots of time to research better options...

dogisbadob > WilliamsSW 02/15/2020 at 12:28

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Rock Auto should have some good options :)

Akebono pads and Powerstop coated rotors are good if they make them for your car

404 - User No Longer Available > dogisbadob 02/15/2020 at 12:35

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This. I ordered my stuff from them (except I had to source the rear rotors locally since RockAuto quoted me the wrong ones) and took it to my indie for my BMW. I thought it was massively more expensive than my Pontiac but turns out everything was the same except an extra $5 sensor.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > WilliamsSW 02/15/2020 at 12:36

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It’s worth pulling the wheels and eye-balling the pads and rotors yourself.

I’d be shocked if the rears were worn anywhere as much as the fronts, btw.  That almost never happens in a car with weight and load biased to the front.

fintail > WilliamsSW 02/15/2020 at 12:36

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Indy shop time.

WilliamsSW > dogisbadob 02/15/2020 at 12:37

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It looks like they do, at least for the rears.

My first step needs to be to figure out if rotors are really needed.  German dealers love  replacing rotors with every pad change.  

WilliamsSW > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 02/15/2020 at 12:40

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That’s exactly the plan, though not until the weather improves at least a little bit. I need to find min rotor specs and measure all.

Agree on the rears, although braking bias is surprisingly neutral for such a nose heavy car. It’s not as balanced as my E46, but it’s pretty good. 

WilliamsSW > fintail 02/15/2020 at 12:40

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That, or WilliamsSW shop time.

404 - User No Longer Available > WilliamsSW 02/15/2020 at 12:41

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Just make sure you google the procedures on resetting the brake counters. I thought I needed the ISTA for mine but turns out the reset was just using the trip odometer reset button to reset any service in my car.

fintail > WilliamsSW 02/15/2020 at 12:42

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I’ve seriously never done brakes in my life. My dad would do them when I was a kid, always made me leery as there seemed to be leftover parts. Although discs are so simple, I suppose it can’t be too bad.

And that money has to include rotors - if not, they are really trying to hose you.

VincentMalamute-Kim > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 02/15/2020 at 12:43

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T rue. One exception is Ford Transits. Rear brakes almost always wear before the fronts. Very strange.

WilliamsSW > 404 - User No Longer Available 02/15/2020 at 12:43

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Yeah, it’s those little tricks that I need to figure out, if I’m going to DIY it.  That, and whether the need for rotors is real or total bullshit. 

WilliamsSW > fintail 02/15/2020 at 12:48

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Me either, but Oppo is inspiring me. Also saving a ton of money is inspiring me.

I’m sure that includes rotors AND they’re trying to hose me.

I’ve found that my area is FULL of people who are price insensitive and that local dealers are very happy to take advantage of that. 

404 - User No Longer Available > WilliamsSW 02/15/2020 at 12:50

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Well from my experience the rotor sensor is pretty accurate, last time when my car complained (it jumped from 4000km remaining to 500km remaining overnight), the inner pads were indeed worn. 

wafflesnfalafel > WilliamsSW 02/15/2020 at 12:50

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new gold plated rotors

WilliamsSW > 404 - User No Longer Available 02/15/2020 at 12:55

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My car hasn’t complained yet, though, just the dealer tech.  We’ll see.

fintail > WilliamsSW 02/15/2020 at 12:56

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What’s the worst that could happen? Oh yeah :)

Many people just have “fuck it” money and don’t care - when I see 20 year old non-special models in the dealer service line, I furrow my brow a little. I wouldn’t take a car not under warranty to the dealer, there’s a huge independent shop industry out there that d oes good work for prior generation cars.

WilliamsSW > fintail 02/15/2020 at 13:00

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There is some serious “fuck it” money around here, and plenty of others who like to pretend they have it.

Hey! My 20 year old BMW will be headed to the dealer soon!

For factory recalls...

WilliamsSW > wafflesnfalafel 02/15/2020 at 13:01

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They ought to be solid gold, not plated.

WilliamsSW > VincentMalamute-Kim 02/15/2020 at 13:07

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That’s really weird on a nose heavy van. 

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > VincentMalamute-Kim 02/15/2020 at 13:08

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I’ve been reading up on the Scorpion since I bought that Lancia a few weeks ago....  due to being MR layout apparently it chews rear brakes like crazy.  They never quite got the bias correct on that car.

bob and john > WilliamsSW 02/15/2020 at 13:09

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Something I found with aftermarket brakes.

They dont last NEARLY as long as the OEM stuff. When I get the OEm brakes for my lexus, they last probably 2 or 3 times as long and dont sqeak nearly as quickly as aftermarket stuff.

now, are they the BEST in terms of performance? no. But its a trade off that for a DD, i’m making. and they only cost $50% more then after market stuff, so they pay for themselves.


*** note, if you are tracking your car or doing high performance driving, aftermarket stuff made for it is better. OEm doesnt hold up to the heat as well.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > WilliamsSW 02/15/2020 at 13:10

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People will have all kinds of opinions on rotors... but I’ve found pad selection (at least on these German cars) is probably more important. I had a weird brake pulse thing on an A8 I was SURE was rotors— but even though the pads had almost no wear on them from P/O all I really needed to do was find a better grade pad.

Generally you can never go wrong with the OEM grade pad, but I’ve learned the rotors matter a whole lot less.

diplodicus forgot his password > WilliamsSW 02/15/2020 at 13:11

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My e28 rotors have the min thickness stamped on the rotor hat

WilliamsSW > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 02/15/2020 at 13:15

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I’m quite happy with braking performance- it’s very good for a 4400 lb tank. Tracking that car would be LOL- it’s quick, but too heavy and soft for that.

My inclination is to get OEM pads and DIY it, if the rotors are Ok.

WilliamsSW > bob and john 02/15/2020 at 13:20

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I’d be inclined to use OEM parts, unless I found something that would really be an upgrade. It’s a DD, I haul kids around, and it’s a high performance car of a sort (though tracking or auto crossing it would be just for the lulz).

I’m sure I can use OEM and still be way under $2k.

VincentMalamute-Kim > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 02/15/2020 at 13:30

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I have to assume Ford did it deliberately on the Transits. Or they’re idiots.

How hard can it be to adjust the brake bias?  Maybe Lancia are idiots too.

fintail > WilliamsSW 02/15/2020 at 13:30

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P retending is fun, the key is doing it with smarts - hence the indy shop. No status is gained by sending an old car to the dealer, balling on a budget in a W22 1 or similar is possible and I see the appeal , just not that way.

I once took the fintail to the local dealer. This was when there really wasn’t much internet parts source (1997) and the car developed a malady that needed a quick repair. MB keeps stocks of mechanical parts going back decades, and the dealer could supply the part (broken FI line) in just a few days. It wasn’t insanely expensive anyway, so there it went. I still remember a tech telling me “I’ve never seen one of these before”, which gave me some pause - but it was fixed without issue.

VincentMalamute-Kim > WilliamsSW 02/15/2020 at 13:32

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After I posted that, I thought more about it. 95% of Transits are work vans and loaded with plumbing/electrical/whatnot. So Ford gave the brakes rear bias knowing that’s the 95% condition?

Unlike pickup trucks where 95% spend their time driving to the mall with an empty bed.

bob and john > WilliamsSW 02/15/2020 at 13:34

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You’d be shocked...
IIRC, a set of brakes rotors for the front of an IS-F (from lexus dealer) is something like $1,100 CAD for a set. and thats just FRONT rotors. 

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > WilliamsSW 02/15/2020 at 13:34

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exactly,

Sovande > WilliamsSW 02/15/2020 at 13:34

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That is pretty close to what I was quoted for brakes on my Volvo. You have to use the dealer software to release the electric parking brake. The DIY work around is to remove the parking brake from the caliper and then replace the seal when you put it all back together. If you don’t replace the seal, they will leak. Read up on changing them yourself and make sure there aren’t any little tricks like that. $2000 is a silly price when the parts for me are only $380.

DipodomysDeserti > VincentMalamute-Kim 02/15/2020 at 13:35

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Same with JK Wranglers. Has to do with a very aggressive anti roll system which grabs the rear brakes pretty frequently.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > VincentMalamute-Kim 02/15/2020 at 13:36

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I wouldn’t rule out ‘BOTH’ as a valid answer...

Textured Soy Protein > WilliamsSW 02/15/2020 at 13:36

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I did a quick search on FCP Euro for your OE stuff. Total parts cost not including fluids if you decide to do a flush is $558.76.

Front rotors (2)

https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/mercedes-brake-disc-front-c63-amg-zimmerman-0004212012

Rear rotors (2)

https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/mercedes-disc-brake-rotor-e550-2194230012

Front pads (1)

https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/mercedes-brake-pad-set-front-0064201620

Rear pads (1)

https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/mercedes-disc-brake-pad-d2008p

Pad wear sensor (1 or 2? I dunno, my BMW has 1 on each able so I assumed 2)

https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/mercedes-brake-pad-sensor-front-right-2115401717

Anti-squeal (1)

https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/brake-pad-silicone

DipodomysDeserti > WilliamsSW 02/15/2020 at 13:37

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4,400 lbs? Holy shit, that’s more than my Tundra.

MKULTRA1982(ConCrustyBrick) > WilliamsSW 02/15/2020 at 13:37

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Check out FCP euro, if their warranty is still the same you can buy OEM parts from them, and get them replaced for free when they wear out 

DipodomysDeserti > WilliamsSW 02/15/2020 at 13:40

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That’s around what BMW charges for a full brake job. Thankfully I got mine done for free the first time. Only wacky thing I could see is bleeding the system. Sometimes they require special German runes to properly bleed the ABS. Rock Auto has everything you need as far as hardware. Just ordered stuff for my wife’s bimmer and it came out to around $500 or so.

VincentMalamute-Kim > DipodomysDeserti 02/15/2020 at 13:40

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good point - it could be ABS which the traction control and side wind stabilization uses.

someassemblyrequired > WilliamsSW 02/15/2020 at 13:46

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Good aftermarket parts (including rotors and pad sensors) should be $400-500. FCP Euro/Pelican Parts are your friends .

You’ll need a set of retractor tools for the rears IIRC, these are about $20 on Amazon.

ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability > WilliamsSW 02/15/2020 at 13:50

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Check if there is a lip on the rotors, buy a cheap micrometer from Amazon if you wanna measure the thickness of the rotors (that what I've done)

I have cryo treated centric rotors on the Mini. They have been to the tail 3 times and about 6 autocrosses on them. Still no sign of warping, there isn’t even a lip on the rotors. Plus they were cheap, about $50 a corner. I’m sure they make em for the Merc.

I have aggressive pads on the Mini which you probably dont want. But EBC and Akebono make some good pads too.

qbeezy > dogisbadob 02/15/2020 at 13:55

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Can confirm. I use Powerstop pads for my Genesis and my 323i, for DD and track /autocross duty. They work very well and have went the distance. Granted they will not last as long as the OEM pads, but that’s a given considering the track time. But the performance is pretty damn good.

facw > WilliamsSW 02/15/2020 at 14:00

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Rears just a lot smaller maybe?

dogisbadob > WilliamsSW 02/15/2020 at 14:01

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replacing rotors with every pad chance is a good idea, though , German car or not.

Rotors rust so bad, and they they don’t cost much, so you might as well replace them every time. Coated rotors will last longer, even though the coating doesn’t last forever.

WilliamsSW > dogisbadob 02/15/2020 at 14:31

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Yeah, I’m not opposed to it, I’m just opposed to spending $2k haha.

WilliamsSW > DipodomysDeserti 02/15/2020 at 14:32

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I don’t know if that’s exactly right, but it’s close. It’s a tank.  

WilliamsSW > facw 02/15/2020 at 14:33

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On my car,the fronts are big and cross drilled.  

WilliamsSW > DipodomysDeserti 02/15/2020 at 14:35

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Rock Auto or similar for good  quality parts is the likely plan, as long as there are no crazy tricks to it, which I have time to research.

dogisbadob > WilliamsSW 02/15/2020 at 14:52

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what is the year and model of your car?

Spanfeller is a twat > WilliamsSW 02/15/2020 at 15:28

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I enjoyed the pun.

Cé hé sin > WilliamsSW 02/15/2020 at 15:46

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What are you doing to your brakes? I disposed of my previous car two years ago. It had 289,000 km up at 24 years old and so far as I recall it was on the original discs all round.

WilliamsSW > dogisbadob 02/15/2020 at 16:00

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2014 Mercedes E550 sedan.

WilliamsSW > Textured Soy Protein 02/15/2020 at 16:22

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I like that a lot better than $2k!

WilliamsSW > Cé hé sin 02/15/2020 at 16:24

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It depends a lot on how thick the rotors were to begin with. I think they’re getting thinner, because weight savings, so they don’t last as long.

That said, I’m not at all convinced the car needs new ones - German dealers here like to replace rotors every time the pads are changed.

My driving is nothing out of the ordinary.

dogisbadob > WilliamsSW 02/15/2020 at 16:46

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Can you use rotors from the E350 or E400? Are the same diameter as the E550's front rotors? The factory rotors seem to be drilled, but maybe you can find cheaper blanks to fit your car if you’re lucky

Maybe these will fit if your rotors are 360mm.

BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind > WilliamsSW 02/15/2020 at 16:47

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I’m late to the party here, but all I can say is...that’s not that much? As a BMW and Land Rover owner, $1k/side for brakes is pretty standard. Heck, even the Toyota Tundra that my FIL owned was quoted at about $1k for the front brakes.

Of course, parts are way cheaper to DIY. Cost me about $350 to do my own brakes on the Land Rover, as opposed to $2500 at the dealer. 

WilliamsSW > dogisbadob 02/15/2020 at 16:57

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I’m not sure, but I won’t downgrade the brakes- I don’t need to do that.

I suspect they’re the same anyways - I’ve seen E350 sports with cross drilled rotors too.  

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > VincentMalamute-Kim 02/15/2020 at 16:59

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Apparently Jeep Wranglers have rear-biased brakes too. 

WilliamsSW > BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind 02/15/2020 at 17:00

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I think the last brake job I paid for was on my E46, and it was $1000 all around.  It was done by a BMW Master Tech with OEM parts — but in his garage on the side.

But yeah I think the dealer wanted double that.

VincentMalamute-Kim > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 02/15/2020 at 17:05

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Dipodo mys mentioned it’s due to anti-roll above.  Transits have side wind stabilization using the brakes so I’d believe that.

shop-teacher > WilliamsSW 02/15/2020 at 20:40

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I have a great Indy guy in Villa Park, if you decide to go that route. I'm also willing to help if you decide to DIY.

WilliamsSW > shop-teacher 02/15/2020 at 21:07

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Thanks!  I need todo some research but would like to try DIY if there aren’t any silly software resets or other crap to deal with.

superdave847 > WilliamsSW 02/15/2020 at 21:51

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That’s way too high.

WilliamsSW > superdave847 02/15/2020 at 22:00

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Yeah I think this dealer is a bit greedy.

superdave847 > WilliamsSW 02/15/2020 at 22:35

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I changed my brakes on my E46 in the alley behind my old apartment in Logan Square back in the day because the mechanic said it would be $600 and I thought that was outrageous!

N ow, I accept that’s a reasonable price—but I can’t imagine paying more than a thousand.

shop-teacher > WilliamsSW 02/16/2020 at 00:43

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Full disclosure, I've done very little of this kind of work, so don't think I'm an expert or anything :)

WilliamsSW > shop-teacher 02/17/2020 at 12:41

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Ha!  That’s ok.  I have time to research it and watch YouTube videos first!

shop-teacher > WilliamsSW 02/17/2020 at 16:06

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Good! :)